BlizzardBomb
Sep 1, 12:23 PM
Hmph...I don't really trust masOSXrumors at all...
You can trust AppleInsider though and they too have said 23" and Merom iMacs. Looks like pretty solid evidence now but we'll have to wait and see.
I wonder if it'll use the same poor quality 23" panel that the ACD does.
Well, if you like everything rose-tinted it's OK :p
New 23" displays do not have the pink tint.
You can trust AppleInsider though and they too have said 23" and Merom iMacs. Looks like pretty solid evidence now but we'll have to wait and see.
I wonder if it'll use the same poor quality 23" panel that the ACD does.
Well, if you like everything rose-tinted it's OK :p
New 23" displays do not have the pink tint.
OdduWon
Jan 1, 06:14 PM
with iTv,the new features in iChat (background images), and the rumors of new iSight and apple game console, perhaps we will se see some type of iToy like device.:p
Also, with updates to iChat, perhaps we will see some smaller form of iSight for use with iTv and iPod/TelePod. This would also allow people to watch movies with friends around the world with a core animation powered keynote like Pic in Pic format.
Or perhaps ^QT8^ will provide this function. ;)
Also, with updates to iChat, perhaps we will see some smaller form of iSight for use with iTv and iPod/TelePod. This would also allow people to watch movies with friends around the world with a core animation powered keynote like Pic in Pic format.
Or perhaps ^QT8^ will provide this function. ;)
moobookpro
Oct 23, 11:05 PM
yes, my macbook pro will not support 64 bit instructions. i was fully aware of that when i bought it.
leopard is confirmed to be 64 bit all the way through -ie the user interface is as well. i do agree that 64 bit GUI applications will surface but you can't say that all 32 bit machines will be massively disadvantaged and become redundant.
what you have implied is that the 64 bit thing will be so massive and make so much of a difference to your computing experience that a 64 bit notebook computer is essential.
btw - the g5 has been out for years. umm wait. it's 64 bit too :rolleyes: where are the MAINSTREAM apps that utilise the 64 bit facility of tiger??
aussie_geek
Considering we are talking about a Pro machine I hope you are not refering to "consumer" when you say "mainstream". If so, then get a clue. Fact of the matter is, 64-bit will improve the experience across the board but specifically it will aid the intended users of this machine most: pros. There is a Pro there for a reason. But I'll bite: I'm pretty sure Final Cut Pro, Aperture, Logic and Photoshop (I could go on, but to help you save face I'll stop here) are all mainstream pro apps and will all definitely benefit from having an OS built to do more than simply accomodate 64-bit, but actually utilize it properly. Not to further strike you down but the only place that 64-bit instructions are possible (at least on the Intel side) is in Unix terminal apps in Tiger at the moment. That would seem to answer your question a bit. I'm pretty sure the people that this machine is targeted towards will appreciate the benefits of 64-bit processing more than I could summarize (and way more than you could refute).
To answer someone else's question, the current Core 2 Duo processor and accompanying chipset supports EM64T enabling 64-bit processing.
leopard is confirmed to be 64 bit all the way through -ie the user interface is as well. i do agree that 64 bit GUI applications will surface but you can't say that all 32 bit machines will be massively disadvantaged and become redundant.
what you have implied is that the 64 bit thing will be so massive and make so much of a difference to your computing experience that a 64 bit notebook computer is essential.
btw - the g5 has been out for years. umm wait. it's 64 bit too :rolleyes: where are the MAINSTREAM apps that utilise the 64 bit facility of tiger??
aussie_geek
Considering we are talking about a Pro machine I hope you are not refering to "consumer" when you say "mainstream". If so, then get a clue. Fact of the matter is, 64-bit will improve the experience across the board but specifically it will aid the intended users of this machine most: pros. There is a Pro there for a reason. But I'll bite: I'm pretty sure Final Cut Pro, Aperture, Logic and Photoshop (I could go on, but to help you save face I'll stop here) are all mainstream pro apps and will all definitely benefit from having an OS built to do more than simply accomodate 64-bit, but actually utilize it properly. Not to further strike you down but the only place that 64-bit instructions are possible (at least on the Intel side) is in Unix terminal apps in Tiger at the moment. That would seem to answer your question a bit. I'm pretty sure the people that this machine is targeted towards will appreciate the benefits of 64-bit processing more than I could summarize (and way more than you could refute).
To answer someone else's question, the current Core 2 Duo processor and accompanying chipset supports EM64T enabling 64-bit processing.
Snowy_River
Nov 15, 07:08 PM
Im really looking forwards to this, if the 8-core 2.66 Macpro its going to cost just a little more than a quad 3ghz Macpro, im going to be buying as soon as it hits the website...
As a recent Mac switcher, coming straight in with a base spec macpro(4x2.66/4gb/1750gbHDD), im now happy to invest in a more powerful machine.
My only concern is the heat... my current Macpro runs 24/7 and 95% of the time is at full load across all 4 cores... and its still silent with temps never going over 52c... will these quad core chips run much hotter, meaning the front fans have to spin faster/noisier to keep the machine cool?
Given your current machine, you might consider just swapping in new CPUs. :)
As a recent Mac switcher, coming straight in with a base spec macpro(4x2.66/4gb/1750gbHDD), im now happy to invest in a more powerful machine.
My only concern is the heat... my current Macpro runs 24/7 and 95% of the time is at full load across all 4 cores... and its still silent with temps never going over 52c... will these quad core chips run much hotter, meaning the front fans have to spin faster/noisier to keep the machine cool?
Given your current machine, you might consider just swapping in new CPUs. :)
skunk
Mar 27, 08:59 AM
He even says that European Command is headed by a US Admiral.Really? How shocking! Imagine, the US European Command, headed by an American! Next you'll be telling us that the US President is an American, too.
macfan881
Sep 6, 07:20 PM
i have a list to that is aparently from ipodhub.net of the movies that will be scheduled to be avalible or soon coming within the following year
from Walt Disney Pictures: James and the Giant Peach, Pocahontas, The Lion King, Aladdin, Chicken Little, Herbie: Fully Loaded, Sky High, Ice Princess, National Treasure, Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
From Disney/Pixar: Toy Story, Toy Story 2, Toy Story 3 (?), A Bug's Life, Monsters Inc., Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Cars.
From Miramax: Cold Mountain, The Hours, Chicago, Cinderella Man, Scary Movie 1,2,3 and 4.
From Touchstone Pictures: The Royal Tenenbaums, Pearl Harbor, The Sixth Sense (with Hollywood Pictures), Unbreakable, Gone in Sixty Seconds, Shanghai Noon, Deuce Bigalow Male Gigolo, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, King Arthur, Hidalgo, Open Range, Signs, Reign of Fire.
Apart from Disney and Pixar, Lion's Gate Entertainment will make the following, mostly horror, movies available: American Psycho, Dogma, Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai, Pi, Requiem for a Dream, Open Water, Dirty Dancing: Havana Nights, The Punisher, Fahrenheit 9/11, Crash, Alone in the Dark, Hostel, Saw 1 and 2. if any one wants to update that that is coming from ipodhub.net
from Walt Disney Pictures: James and the Giant Peach, Pocahontas, The Lion King, Aladdin, Chicken Little, Herbie: Fully Loaded, Sky High, Ice Princess, National Treasure, Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl, The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe.
From Disney/Pixar: Toy Story, Toy Story 2, Toy Story 3 (?), A Bug's Life, Monsters Inc., Finding Nemo, The Incredibles, Cars.
From Miramax: Cold Mountain, The Hours, Chicago, Cinderella Man, Scary Movie 1,2,3 and 4.
From Touchstone Pictures: The Royal Tenenbaums, Pearl Harbor, The Sixth Sense (with Hollywood Pictures), Unbreakable, Gone in Sixty Seconds, Shanghai Noon, Deuce Bigalow Male Gigolo, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, King Arthur, Hidalgo, Open Range, Signs, Reign of Fire.
Apart from Disney and Pixar, Lion's Gate Entertainment will make the following, mostly horror, movies available: American Psycho, Dogma, Ghost Dog: The Way of the Samurai, Pi, Requiem for a Dream, Open Water, Dirty Dancing: Havana Nights, The Punisher, Fahrenheit 9/11, Crash, Alone in the Dark, Hostel, Saw 1 and 2. if any one wants to update that that is coming from ipodhub.net
flopticalcube
Apr 20, 02:33 PM
Why would be ever see this on an iMac? Mac mini, yes (it was overdue). iMac, never.
And would be redundant now that displayport carries audio and is easily converted to HDMI.
And would be redundant now that displayport carries audio and is easily converted to HDMI.
kalun
Oct 23, 11:00 PM
Meanwhile, product checks (http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=2163) indicate that several European hardware distributers "ran dry" of MacBook and MacBook Pro inventory several weeks ago.
Well, in Japan, there are enough Macbook Pro so that it is shipped within 24 hours. so...ya....
Well, in Japan, there are enough Macbook Pro so that it is shipped within 24 hours. so...ya....
Ace25
Sep 6, 07:13 PM
The best option (besides a rental model, which we know is not going to happen) would be to release a media center (iTheatre, iHome, etc.) that has a 250GB or 500GB hard-drive. All the movies could be downloaded through the GUI on the TV!
Then, if you ever were to need them on your laptop you could transfer them via firewire to up to 5 computers at one-time (just like your purchased iTunes music.)
Then, if you ever were to need them on your laptop you could transfer them via firewire to up to 5 computers at one-time (just like your purchased iTunes music.)
Paul Graham
Jan 23, 10:22 AM
I will be getting one of these later this year, Once I have enough put back lol...
http://www.meinekarre.de/cars/VW_BORA_AudiA3extra.jpg
No that isn't mine, But it's the style I'll be going with etc...
Call it inspiration lol.
So watch this space hehe......
http://www.meinekarre.de/cars/VW_BORA_AudiA3extra.jpg
No that isn't mine, But it's the style I'll be going with etc...
Call it inspiration lol.
So watch this space hehe......
Kadman
Mar 25, 09:04 PM
This is interesting and it'll be fun to geek around with it. However, games of this type (and most traditional console game styles for that matter) just aren't conducive to tablet control types, regardless if it's touch or motion controlled. The precision is just lacking for any serious gaming. However, casual game play shouldn't prove to be too frustrating control-wise. In this specific situation I'd be willing to go out on a limb and state that more people will buy it for the eye candy or showing off what the platform can do vs those who actually put serious play time into it. Just my thoughts.
Still looks great and I've found my new iPad 2 demo (once it's updated) ;)
Still looks great and I've found my new iPad 2 demo (once it's updated) ;)
yg17
Mar 24, 12:02 PM
No trying to substitute facts and history with your own beliefs. Homosexuality is not natural, there is no natural way for reproduction which is the whole purpose of sex or the "reproduction system" as it may be classified.
So someone who is sterile due to medical reasons shouldn't be allowed to marry either? There's no natural way for them to reproduce.
So someone who is sterile due to medical reasons shouldn't be allowed to marry either? There's no natural way for them to reproduce.
twoodcc
Dec 18, 11:06 AM
Way to go!
thanks! should be #9 today!
Our team is at 2.147 million points for the last 7 days, the highest I've ever seen it!! Way to go Team!
Macrumors.com - Team Folding - 7 days 2,146,864 Total points 146,241M
We're catching up to those Greeks and will soon pass them.
yeah way to go! i know we've been picking it up lately. i think the more we keep this forum active, the more active the macrumors community will be. to keep posting stuff here
thanks! should be #9 today!
Our team is at 2.147 million points for the last 7 days, the highest I've ever seen it!! Way to go Team!
Macrumors.com - Team Folding - 7 days 2,146,864 Total points 146,241M
We're catching up to those Greeks and will soon pass them.
yeah way to go! i know we've been picking it up lately. i think the more we keep this forum active, the more active the macrumors community will be. to keep posting stuff here
Veinticinco
Apr 3, 03:56 AM
That's probably one of the most powerful adverts I've ever seen. Apple really are geniuses, no wonder competitors think "How the ***** do they do it?".
You need to get out more. Seriously.
You need to get out more. Seriously.
chutch15
Sep 14, 08:19 AM
I agree. Without a case, the new Touch is slippery. The Belkin case adds just enough bulk and grip to make it very comfortable to hold. I don't feel like I'm going to drop it any more and it slides right into my pocket as well.
BTW, the Night Sky looks almost black in low light. :)
BTW, the Night Sky looks almost black in low light. :)
CalBoy
Mar 21, 12:32 AM
There are homeopathic apps in the AppStore. Those won't work any better than this 'pray the gay away' app, but they still are allowed in the store.
Then I think Apple might be exposed to the same potential liabilities for homeopathic remedies too. Mind you I don't think (or know definitely) anyone has successfully maintained that companies that knowingly permit the propagation of dangerous materials should be held liable. I do, however, think that it would be a fair standard to apply if the company is going to trumpet it's own "protective" prowess.
Apple is being inconsistent with its policies on the App Store. Either any offensive or potentially dangerous app should be barred, or none of them should be. By trying to play the part of the micromanager, Apple is revealing its own limitations.
No-one could possibly be offended by homeopathy.
I disagree. The level of offense might be lower than this gay-be-gone app, but I'm sure many physicians, nurses, and skeptics are not too fond of junk science being spread.
Moreover, it isn't just about what offends; that is merely a measuring stick to figure out what Apple's priorities are. I'm sure there is an app to offend everyone in the app store (does the Auduban Society approve of Angry Birds?). The question is which of these apps represents a real problem for users? As much as I disagree with Jobs about porn in the app store, there is at least some minimal possibility of utility in leaving porn out of the app store in that parents will be better able to decide what their kids download (not that there aren't other means of doing so, or that the kids haven't already seen porn). Sure it isn't a fantastic reason, but at least there's plausibility.
I think something similar can be said for this gay-be-gone app or a homeopathic app. In these situations the dangers from app use are not only higher, but they also run contrary to what medical professionals the world over recommend. If Apple is so willing to ban something for its plausible dangers, why not ban something for its very real dangers?
I think that should be a more important metric over offense. An app that is offensive but which doesn't hurt anyone either directly on indirectly should be scrutinized much less than one that does. In this light, it becomes more clear that what Apple really wanted to do all along was keep porn out of the App Store. Not because it's offensive or dangerous, but because it would make their devices easier to sell even in the most conservative of markets.
Then I think Apple might be exposed to the same potential liabilities for homeopathic remedies too. Mind you I don't think (or know definitely) anyone has successfully maintained that companies that knowingly permit the propagation of dangerous materials should be held liable. I do, however, think that it would be a fair standard to apply if the company is going to trumpet it's own "protective" prowess.
Apple is being inconsistent with its policies on the App Store. Either any offensive or potentially dangerous app should be barred, or none of them should be. By trying to play the part of the micromanager, Apple is revealing its own limitations.
No-one could possibly be offended by homeopathy.
I disagree. The level of offense might be lower than this gay-be-gone app, but I'm sure many physicians, nurses, and skeptics are not too fond of junk science being spread.
Moreover, it isn't just about what offends; that is merely a measuring stick to figure out what Apple's priorities are. I'm sure there is an app to offend everyone in the app store (does the Auduban Society approve of Angry Birds?). The question is which of these apps represents a real problem for users? As much as I disagree with Jobs about porn in the app store, there is at least some minimal possibility of utility in leaving porn out of the app store in that parents will be better able to decide what their kids download (not that there aren't other means of doing so, or that the kids haven't already seen porn). Sure it isn't a fantastic reason, but at least there's plausibility.
I think something similar can be said for this gay-be-gone app or a homeopathic app. In these situations the dangers from app use are not only higher, but they also run contrary to what medical professionals the world over recommend. If Apple is so willing to ban something for its plausible dangers, why not ban something for its very real dangers?
I think that should be a more important metric over offense. An app that is offensive but which doesn't hurt anyone either directly on indirectly should be scrutinized much less than one that does. In this light, it becomes more clear that what Apple really wanted to do all along was keep porn out of the App Store. Not because it's offensive or dangerous, but because it would make their devices easier to sell even in the most conservative of markets.
Donnacha
Nov 27, 04:14 PM
I'd just like to agree with those who have pointed out that the main thing Apple's monitor division should be worrying about is price, not new sizes - the Apple logo can bear a certain price premium but not that much, especially as they don't yet include Apple-specific goodness such as integrated isight etc.
In October, I considered a 23" ACD at �848 inc. VAT, delivery and 3yrs of Applecare cover.
Instead, I phoned Dell and got the 24" 2407WP for �549.08 inc. VAT, delivery and 4yrs next business day swap-out cover. For the Apple, I would have had to pay a premium of 55% and got 1yr less cover.
Now, as it happens, Dell were running a 25% off special on the 24% in October but these offers are in continual rotation; at the moment, if you ask, you can get:
The 30" 3007WFP for just under a grand inclusive and 4yrs cover, compared to �1,618 for the 30" Apple and 3yrs cover (a premium of 62% and 1yr less cover)
and
The 20" 2007WFP for �316 inc. and 4yrs cover, compared to �598 for the 20" Apple with 3yrs cover (a premium of 89% and 1yr less cover).
As for quality, I know monitors and the one I've got is top-notch - while it isn't Apple, the subtle styling is impressive and the stand's tilting and pivoting are the best I've ever seen. The consensus among reviewers seems to agree.
I'm not posting this to annoy Apple fans, I'm a huge fan myself and, yes, I would have paid a premium for that cute little apple logo but, frankly, it wouldn't have been worth that extra 55% - at Apple prices, I might never have made the jump to 24" but I'm glad I did, I'm even thinking about getting a second one.
With the move to Intel, Apple have done a great job of competing on PC pricing, why are they still in fantasyland when it comes to monitor pricing?
In October, I considered a 23" ACD at �848 inc. VAT, delivery and 3yrs of Applecare cover.
Instead, I phoned Dell and got the 24" 2407WP for �549.08 inc. VAT, delivery and 4yrs next business day swap-out cover. For the Apple, I would have had to pay a premium of 55% and got 1yr less cover.
Now, as it happens, Dell were running a 25% off special on the 24% in October but these offers are in continual rotation; at the moment, if you ask, you can get:
The 30" 3007WFP for just under a grand inclusive and 4yrs cover, compared to �1,618 for the 30" Apple and 3yrs cover (a premium of 62% and 1yr less cover)
and
The 20" 2007WFP for �316 inc. and 4yrs cover, compared to �598 for the 20" Apple with 3yrs cover (a premium of 89% and 1yr less cover).
As for quality, I know monitors and the one I've got is top-notch - while it isn't Apple, the subtle styling is impressive and the stand's tilting and pivoting are the best I've ever seen. The consensus among reviewers seems to agree.
I'm not posting this to annoy Apple fans, I'm a huge fan myself and, yes, I would have paid a premium for that cute little apple logo but, frankly, it wouldn't have been worth that extra 55% - at Apple prices, I might never have made the jump to 24" but I'm glad I did, I'm even thinking about getting a second one.
With the move to Intel, Apple have done a great job of competing on PC pricing, why are they still in fantasyland when it comes to monitor pricing?
res1233
Apr 12, 10:21 PM
If I buy Aperture 3, 4, and 5 on the app store I'll have spent $240.
Didn't it used to be $300 for 1 version? What did the upgrades cost? I feel like I'll be way past 5 before I break even.
Yeah, our editing machines aren't even allowed to be on the internet.
Hopefully there's a way around this.
If you could get permission to access the internet to register your mac app store with your account, it's possible that just transferring the app from another computer will be all you'll have to do to get it to work, and can be done with future purchased apps. Just a thought.
Didn't it used to be $300 for 1 version? What did the upgrades cost? I feel like I'll be way past 5 before I break even.
Yeah, our editing machines aren't even allowed to be on the internet.
Hopefully there's a way around this.
If you could get permission to access the internet to register your mac app store with your account, it's possible that just transferring the app from another computer will be all you'll have to do to get it to work, and can be done with future purchased apps. Just a thought.
Tmelon
Mar 31, 05:02 PM
The top of it just does not look like it was meant to be a desktop app. makes me think of all the windows software you get how they over do the look of it.
I wonder if they'll give an option to change it. Or they could possibly scrap the new look completely if all of the developers give negative feedback. It personally doesn't bother me, but I do think they could have made it look at least a bit better.
I wonder if they'll give an option to change it. Or they could possibly scrap the new look completely if all of the developers give negative feedback. It personally doesn't bother me, but I do think they could have made it look at least a bit better.
Tonsko
Jan 11, 03:02 AM
Re:Focus, that's a nice motor. Heard great things about the Mountune kit as well!
Racing wise BTCC and WRC is where it's at for me. Dakar is good too, but only because I get to see about 2 minutes a year I suspect :)
Racing wise BTCC and WRC is where it's at for me. Dakar is good too, but only because I get to see about 2 minutes a year I suspect :)
Yvan256
Apr 3, 09:07 AM
"Technology gets out of the way"
That's why I got a Mac/iPhone in the first place. Get out of my way, Windows/Android!
That's what happened to me years ago, but with iTunes. I was using iTunes on Windows XP and instead of fighting it to organize my files, I finally said to myself "why would I want to manage my files manually"? Then I started using metadata and smart playlists... a few months later I bought a Mac mini G4 which was less powerful than my PC, but then a few weeks later I realized I hadn't booted the PC in over a week. I moved all my data and sold the PC.
I'm now on my 3rd Mac mini (2010 unibody) with 8GB of RAM and it does the tasks I ask without getting in my way. :cool:
That's why I got a Mac/iPhone in the first place. Get out of my way, Windows/Android!
That's what happened to me years ago, but with iTunes. I was using iTunes on Windows XP and instead of fighting it to organize my files, I finally said to myself "why would I want to manage my files manually"? Then I started using metadata and smart playlists... a few months later I bought a Mac mini G4 which was less powerful than my PC, but then a few weeks later I realized I hadn't booted the PC in over a week. I moved all my data and sold the PC.
I'm now on my 3rd Mac mini (2010 unibody) with 8GB of RAM and it does the tasks I ask without getting in my way. :cool:
yukyuklee
Feb 24, 10:58 PM
nice clean setup.
Thanks man! I got the idea from you lol
Do I see a white iPhone 3G/3GS peeking in there?
LOL good eyes! Yes a 16GB iPhone 3GS but it's gone to my gf... I upgraded to the iPhone4 :)
Thanks man! I got the idea from you lol
Do I see a white iPhone 3G/3GS peeking in there?
LOL good eyes! Yes a 16GB iPhone 3GS but it's gone to my gf... I upgraded to the iPhone4 :)
briantology
Feb 23, 09:45 PM
Nice and simple. That's what I really should do is arm mount the display and MacBook... *ponders this* Can you still get to the optical drive in the MBP?
Edit: I'm looking at Amazon right now, do you have to have two arms for the way you have everything mounted? I'm thinking that the answer is yes.
Thanks :]
The optical drive on my model is in the front, so it's blocked by a "flap" that keeps the laptop from falling off. I suppose you could just lift the machine up for a moment to insert a disc though. If it's one of the newer MBPs (or any model MacBook) and the drive is on the side, you should have easy access.
And yes, it's two separate arms, as per the links.
Edit: I'm looking at Amazon right now, do you have to have two arms for the way you have everything mounted? I'm thinking that the answer is yes.
Thanks :]
The optical drive on my model is in the front, so it's blocked by a "flap" that keeps the laptop from falling off. I suppose you could just lift the machine up for a moment to insert a disc though. If it's one of the newer MBPs (or any model MacBook) and the drive is on the side, you should have easy access.
And yes, it's two separate arms, as per the links.
dguisinger
Aug 7, 07:42 AM
There will never be NTFS write abilities in Mac OS X for a long time as Microsoft still keeps NTFS writing a propritary technology only licensed for use in Windows XP.
Oh, i wouldnt say that....
Microsoft and Apple did a 5-yr cross license of patents in 1997. Now, that doesnt mean you get access for only 5 years, that means anything that was patented up to 2002 is cross licensed perpetually between the two companies.
If NTFS is patented, it was around well before that date. If its not, then Apple just has to write the code to write NTFS.
Interesting question is; when did the first iPod patents arrive? Does MS have access to anything for Zune that creative & co didnt?
Oh, i wouldnt say that....
Microsoft and Apple did a 5-yr cross license of patents in 1997. Now, that doesnt mean you get access for only 5 years, that means anything that was patented up to 2002 is cross licensed perpetually between the two companies.
If NTFS is patented, it was around well before that date. If its not, then Apple just has to write the code to write NTFS.
Interesting question is; when did the first iPod patents arrive? Does MS have access to anything for Zune that creative & co didnt?
